Opinion Editorials & Interviews

Interview on Ekho Moskvy with Aleksey Venediktov

William J. Burns, U.S. Ambassador to Russia

Ekho Moskvy, March 02, 2006

Venediktov - Good morning, Mr. Ambassador. Ambassador William Joseph Burns is with us. Good afternoon, Mr. Ambassador.

Ambassador Burns - Good afternoon, thank you very much for having me today.

Venediktov - Mr. Ambassador, we will come directly to the main question of the week. I would like to understand your opinion about the degree Russia and the United States share a similar position on Iran's armament and disarmament?

Ambassador Burns - We have a very strong, shared strategic interest in ensuring that the Iranian regime does not develop nuclear weapons. I think we've coordinated very closely together - the United States, Russia, Britain, France, Germany and China - over the course of the last few months. The United States, like Russia, very much wants to see a diplomatic solution to this problem. We've supported Russia's proposal to establish a joint venture with Iran on Russian soil to enrich fuel, but Russia has made very clear that in order to implement that proposal, Iran needs to return to a moratorium on all enrichment activity. And so, I think the coordination between Russia and the United States has been very good and very close. It's only through a strong, solid international front that we're going to get Iran's attention.

Venediktov - The Iranian delegation today claimed that you hindered the establishment of the joint Russian-Iranian venture in Russia. Can you comment on this?

Ambassador Burns - That's not true. The United States supported Russia's proposal, and Russia has been equally clear about what it will require in order to implement that proposal.

Venediktov - Is it hard to say what will happen on March sixth at the IAEA meeting? Will the U.S. wait for the IAEA decision, or is it ready to transfer the Iranian dossier to the Security Council?

Ambassador Burns - That's right, this is going to be a very important report from Dr. El Baradei and the IAEA. We know that Iran for eighteen years concealed secret nuclear activities from the IAEA, so we are all going to pay careful attention to their report and then the Security Council is going to have to consider what further actions it might take.

Venediktov - I did not understand clearly. Could the dossier not be forwarded to the Security Council?

Ambassador Burns - No, our view is that the issue is already with the Security Council, but obviously the next step is the meeting on March 6th - and that's going to be a very important step.

Venediktov - There is a joke in Russia about two blondes asking each other the correct way to spell Iraq or Iran - but it's a serious joke. Will Iraq's story not be repeated in Iran?

Ambassador Burns - I think these are two different stories. Iran poses a very serious challenge to the international community and that's why the United States and Russia are united in our response, in our pursuit of a diplomatic solution that does not allow Iran to acquire a nuclear weapon. Iraq is a different and also a very serious story. The truth is, in recent weeks Iraqis have moved very close to the brink of a civil war. I think responsible Iraqi leaders are drawing back from that, and it's in all of our interests to help stabilize their country.

Venediktov - Will the Security Council discuss the Iranian dossier in any case and will the U.S. insist on that in any case?

Ambassador Burns - That's right, but we've got to take it step by step - and the next important step, just as you said, is the meeting on March sixth in Vienna.

Venediktov - The next topic will be negotiations with the Hamas delegation. The U.S. has expressed concern about such negotiations. Am I right, or not?

Ambassador Burns -Since I last served in Moscow, I have spent most of the last ten years in the Middle East, and I've found that you can't escape Middle East issues. With regard to the visit of the Hamas delegation, the important thing from the point of view of the United States and other members of the Quartet, which includes Russia, is the content of the message that is delivered to Hamas. There is an understanding among the members of the Quartet that Hamas needs to understand that the key conditions for moving ahead toward the realization of legitimate Palestinian political aspirations are acceptance of Israel, renunciation of terrorism and violence, and acceptance of all the previous agreements made by the Palestinians. It's the business of Palestinians to choose their leaders - and they've made their choice in the last elections - but the only way forward in the peace process is going to be through meeting those kinds of criteria.

Venediktov - Again here, do you feel Russia and the U.S. are following the same line? What is your point of view?

Ambassador Burns -With regard to the content of the message, I think we have a strong, unified view and we've worked well together over the last three or four years in the Quartet. I think we'll continue that.

Venediktov - Mr. Ambassador, there is a feeling that some countries, including the U.S. and the EU, prefer Russia to do the dirty work by carrying out initial negotiations with organizations such as Hamas that are considered terrorist and with such rogue states as Iran. So, is Russia being used by the EU and the U.S. to do their dirty work? How would you comment on this?

Ambassador Burns -Well, we do a lot of complicated and tough jobs ourselves. In the case of Hamas, Russia has not chosen to designate Hamas as a terrorist organization. All the other members of the Quartet have. The Russian government has made a choice to try to use its contacts with Hamas to reinforce the message I described before. As I said, you can only hope that that message is going to be understood and acted upon.

Venediktov - Russia has chosen that. But you supported that choice, right?

Ambassador Burns - What we support is a very strong, direct message to Hamas because it is in the best interests of Palestinians.

Venediktov - And one more question, if you cannot escape the Middle East. In the U.S., newspapers did not publish cartoons of Prophet Mohammed and they did not express solidarity with the European newspapers - or did they? What is the position of the U.S. government on the so-called "cartoon scandal?"

Ambassador Burns - The position is very clear. We consider the caricatures themselves to be reprehensible. At the same time, some of the reaction, the violence you saw throughout the Islamic world and in other parts of the world is also something that cannot be tolerated. It is perfectly understandable that people had very strong and emotional reactions to those caricatures, but it is important that those reactions be applied through a peaceful means.

Venediktov - I would like to remind you that U.S. Ambassador Burns is giving a live interview. We are going to switch to polling now and I'm going to ask our audience a question and you, Mr. Ambassador, will comment later on the results. He will not see them during the polling. The question for polling today is: Should Russia be an ally to the U.S. in the Middle East or a competitor? Ambassador Burns will later comment on the results. We are talking about the Middle East, not about Belarus, not Ukraine, not about Mexico, not even about Australia. We are talking about the Middle East.

So, my question again to you: Should Russia be an ally to the U.S. in the Middle East or a rival? Fifty people have already called us - sorry 100 already - so everybody is concerned about this problem. Why is everybody concerned about the Middle East, Mr. Ambassador?

Ambassador Burns -The Middle East?

Venediktov - Yes.

Ambassador Burns - I think it's a concern because instability in the Middle East has created real problems not only for the people of that region, but beyond the region. It's not only the unresolved conflict between Palestinians and Israelis, but it's how the frustration and the lack of hope in that region have fueled violent extremism of the sort that killed more than 3,000 Americans on September 11, and that threatens Russia and many other countries around the world. I think we have a very strong common interest in cooperation in dealing with that challenge. It's complicated, there are a lot of different things we have to do, but I think we can accomplish a lot more by working together.

Venediktov - He's just said "cooperation" - he is exerting pressure on the audience. I repeat the question; we're talking about the Middle East. The question is: Should Russia be an ally to the U.S. in the Middle East or a rival? Join us and later Ambassador Burns will comment on the results.

Mr. Ambassador, you spoke about terrorism. You know that quite recently a law in Russia was adopted by the State Duma - not by the President - which allows the Armed Forces to shoot down planes captured by terrorists, even if hostages are on board. We remember on the one hand September 11, when airplanes where heading to New York and Washington D.C. On the other hand, do you remember the movie "Air Force One," where terrorists captured the Presidential plane? Let that remain fiction as far our Presidents are concerned. What is your opinion of such practices and such laws?

Ambassador Burns - A terrorist imposes some very, very hard choices for all of us. It's not for me to prescribe how Russia or any other country is going to deal with that challenge. I don't mean to suggest that Americans have all the answers to all these problems, because we don't. In the course of the events around September 11, our military had to consider very carefully whether or not to try and shoot down planes, and it's conceivable that that could have happened at that time. So, again, these are choices and judgments which are very, very difficult to make, but sometimes they become ones that you have consider.

Venediktov - I remind you that polling is still going on, we have received over three thousand calls. The question is: Should Russia be an ally to the U.S. in the Middle East or a rival? We are conducting an on-air poll.

Now let us switch to another region, Mr. Ambassador. Russia perceives very acutely the position of the U.S. on Russia's ally, Belarus. Voices are becoming louder and louder, saying that the U.S. is trying to create a situation in which the opposition will win in Belarus, saying that the U.S. is financing opposition, using NGOs, and plotting in the dark. What is your opinion on that?

Ambassador Burns - Our main concern about Belarus is simply that the elections about to take place are conducted in a free and fair way so that the citizens of Belarus have an opportunity to make their own free choices. That's our main concern. That's the main concern of our mutual friends in Europe and the OSCE.

Venediktov - As our listeners ask, what business is democracy in Belarus of yours? Where is Belarus and where is the U.S.?

Ambassador Burns - The truth is that the ties that bind Russians and citizens of Belarus together are going to run far deeper than anything that's going to affect the United States. They are ties of history, culture, and economy and it's very important for Americans to understand that. But, the United States, European countries, and others do have an interest in supporting open political processes. That doesn't mean that we're trying to make choices for people, that is not our business. That is the business of the citizens of Belarus, or of Russia, or of Ukraine - or of any other country in this part of the world. We will try and provide what support we can for open political processes.

Venediktov - Do you believe in the export of democracy?

Ambassador Burns - No, I don't think democracy can be imposed from outside. I think it has to come from within. That's true in the historical experience of the United States. It takes a long time. The United States has had its own shares of setbacks and failures and mistakes along the way. We had a terrible civil war. We've had discrimination, whether it's against women or minorities in the United States. We've tried to learn from our mistakes. As I said before, Americans don't pretend to have all the answers, but we do have some experience that suggests to us that democratic institutions are the best way to realize the potential of people around the world. Russia, and any other country, is going to have to find its own path to build those institutions. Post-Soviet Russia is only fifteen years old, that's not a long time. We very much hope that those institutions, and the checks and balances that come along with them, are going to emerge - because we think it's in the self-interest of Russians.

Venediktov - I'm reminding you that the U.S. Ambassador William Burns is giving a live interview on Ekho Moskvy. Our polling has just ended. Over 4,065 people called us in five minutes. Answering your question, 65% of those who called believe Russia should be an ally to the U.S. in the Middle East, and 35% believe that it should be a competitor. What is your comment?

Ambassador Burns - It's not going to shock you, but I think that we have a lot more to gain together by cooperating in the Middle East than we do by competing. That doesn't mean that we're going to agree on every tactical issue. In a big and complicated relationship, like the relationship between the United States and Russia, there are going to be differences from time to time, but I think your listeners have made a very wise choice and I think both of us need to work hard at that cooperation because it serves both of our interests.

Venediktov - In the U.S., including from leaders of the party which supports President Bush, there have been calls for Russia to be expelled from the G-8 and a banning of the summit in Saint-Petersburg, which Russia will be chairing. What is the position of the State Department, Mr. Ambassador?

Ambassador Burns - The President's position is very clear, and that is that Russia is an important member of the G-8 and we want to do everything that we can to help Russia make a success of the Saint Petersburg summit. I personally think it's an opportunity for Russia. One way or another, a great deal of international attention is going to be focused on that summit, so it's an opportunity for Russia to show the direction that it wants to move in its economy, and its relationship with the rest of the world. It's important to take advantage of that chance.

Venediktov - I would like to stress, Mr. Ambassador, these are the voices of very influential people. Does the Administration defy these calls?

Ambassador Burns - There's a very active debate going on right now in Washington - you see it in the pages of our newspapers, you see it in the Congress - over our relationship with Russia. It's natural in our society for there to be that kind of debate. As I said before, we have a big and complicated relationship. There are many areas where we cooperate, and some areas where we have differences. I think on balance, it's very much in the United States' interest to work with Russia wherever we can, because the emergence of a strong and healthy Russian society and Russian partner serves our interest in many parts of the world.

Venediktov - Together with Columbia, the U.S. is the sole country standing between Russian accession to the WTO. How real are Russia's hopes that these obstacles will be removed?

Ambassador Burns - I think we're actually very close to a bilateral agreement between the United States and Russia on entry into the World Trade Organization. I know people are tired of hearing that, probably especially the negotiators on both sides who have been working very hard on this. I think we've actually narrowed the differences quite a bit. There are two or three key differences that remain. Ultimately this is going to require give and take on the part of both the United States and Russia on issues like intellectual property rights, agriculture, and the question of bank branching or financial services. I think there has been progress made on the question of intellectual property rights. President Putin has been very clear recently about the self-interest of Russia in trying to fight against piracy, which is a threat. It's not a favor to the United States or the WTO to fight piracy, because piracy is a threat to Russia's own music, film, and Internet industries as well. I think that's a very encouraging sign, and that's going to help, not only in the WTO negotiations, but it's going to help ensure a healthy economic future for Russia. I'm an optimist. I think we're very close. I do think we'll reach a bilateral agreement soon, and I do think it's possible for Russia to formally enter the World Trade Organization before the end of 2006.

Venediktov - Here is my next question. Almost half of the questions that were received by us through the Internet are on control of the Internet. It is known that the U.S. government has released a statement on this issue. I understand politicians and diplomats do not favor the free press, that's OK, we don't like it either. I would say that the Internet is controlled. What is the position of the U.S. government? Should we control the Internet and start immediately? How should one treat countries where the Internet is already controlled?

Ambassador Burns - It's a really good question, because the Internet is clearly emerging as one of the most powerful means to communicate, and also one of the most powerful ways of linking societies around the world. In the United States we have generally tried to avoid over-regulation of the media, and particularly over-regulation of the Internet, because we think that it's actually a healthy thing and it helps tie people together for the Internet to grow and to flourish. There obviously are some kinds of problems that we do have regulations regarding, such as pornography on the Internet. That's something any society has to deal with, and we will, too, through our own legislation. Beyond that, experience, at least in the United States, has taught us that trying to allow maximum freedom is actually a very healthy thing for societies around the world.

Venediktov - The point is that not only the government and law-abiding citizens use the Internet. Among others, so do terrorists and terrorist groups. What should be done in this area?

Ambassador Burns - As you mentioned, terrorism finance is an issue where people have used the Internet in financial flows moving from terrorist groups around the world. That's actually an area where the United States and Russia have worked very closely together and we recently issued a report in which we applauded and complimented Russia's efforts in fighting money laundering, which is also related to the Internet. So you're right, there are certain areas where we need to work together to regulate people's misuse or abuse of the Internet. But, in general, our conviction is that we want to encourage as much openness as we can.

Venediktov - I would like to remind you that the U.S. Ambassador to Russia, Mr. Burns, has participated in our program. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador for coming.

Ambassador Burns - My pleasure.