Opinion Editorials & Interviews
Interview with Aleksey Venedictov Ekho Moskvy Radio Station and Nargiz Asadova Kommersant Vlast Magazine
William J. Burns, U.S. Ambassador to Russia
Ekho Moskvy, July 10, 2006
VENEDIKTOV: It is 2:07 pm in Moscow -- Alexey Venediktov speaking. We are continuing our project with Kommersant Vlast where we have invited all seven Ambassadors of G-8 countries to be our guests on the eve of the G-8 summit in order for them to have the opportunity to discuss their country's bilateral relations with Russia. Today at 3:30 pm we have a special guest, the Italian Ambassador, whose team became world champions yesterday, and we'll talk about soccer with him. But now, live in our studios, William Burns Ambassador Plenipotentiary of the United States to Russia is in our studios. I, together with my colleague, Nargiz Asadova from Kommersant Vlast magazine, will be interrogating you. Good afternoon.
AMBASSADOR BURNS: It's a pleasure to be with you this afternoon. If I could, at the outset, I just wanted to offer my condolences to all of your listeners over the terrible aircraft tragedy in Irkutsk yesterday. It's a very, very sad event, and again on behalf of myself, the embassy, and the American people, I'm very, very sorry.
VENEDIKTOV: Thank you very much Mr. Ambassador. I'd like to take specific questions from our audience. The United States is the only country that has not signed an agreement with Russia on Russia's accession to WTO. Do you expect that on the eve of the summit, during the summit, or right after the summit this question is going to be resolved?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: I hope very much that we're going to be able to conclude a bilateral agreement on Russia's accession to the WTO very soon. I think we're very close to an agreement now; our negotiators are in constant contact right now and will be over the next couple of days. The gaps between us have narrowed considerably. There still remain some questions, particularly with regard to piracy of intellectual property and agriculture that our negotiators are trying to solve. But I think it would be very much in the interests of both Russia and the United States for Russia to become a member of the WTO, and we'll do everything we can to try and conclude that bilateral agreement quickly.
VENEDIKTOV: What do you mean by "in the near future"?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: The sooner, the better.
ASADOVA: Let's talk about another organization that Russia is already a member of and is the President of: the G-8. In your opinion, is Russia a full-scale member of the G-8?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: I think it's clear that Russia belongs in the G8. President Bush has made very clear that that's his view. He's also made very clear, including in 3 telephone conversations with President Putin over the course of the last month, that the United States is determined to do everything we can to help make a success of the St. Petersburg G-8 Summit. That's not just in Russia's interests, that's in America's interests and, I think, in the interests of the international community.
ASADOVA: But Russia is not taking part in the finance minister's summit. Why, if Russia is a full-scale member of the G-8?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: Russia did take part in the last two -- in fact it hosted the last two -- meetings of the finance ministers. So I think what we've seen in recent years is a steady progression in Russia's involvement in the G8. Clearly, Russia has a lot to contribute, economically and in other spheres of the G8's activities, and I think that's likely to increase in the years ahead.
VENEDIKTOV: What does Russia have to do financially in order for our Finance Minister to become a member of the G-8 club?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: I think it has been a natural process over recent years. As Russia's economy has grown, as Russia's economy has modernized, as Russia has demonstrated its ability to contribute more and more to the global economy, it's become more and more a part of every aspect of the G-8's work. And, as I said, I think that pattern is going to continue in the future.
ASADOVA: In the United States there is a lot of criticism of Russia for departing from democratic values. How is it possible that Russia, a country that departs from democratic values, is chairing the club of democratic leaders?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: The United States has made no secret of its concerns about some developments in Russia in recent years, for example the over-centralization of power and the difficulties that some, especially in the television media, have in expressing all points of view. Americans have rarely been shy about expressing those concerns, and others in the international community have expressed them as well. What I would stress, I guess, is that Americans don't pretend to any monopoly on wisdom when it comes to how you build democratic institutions. We have our own experience, it has worked well for us, and we think others can learn from that experience. But I don't underestimate the complexities of the task. It's a long-term process and Russia is just at the beginning of making that transition. So when we do have concerns, I'm certain we will continue to express them, but we also recognize that this is not an easy process.
ASADOVA: By the way, on the transition process: soon Russia will host the "Other Russia" summit, where opposition parties and civic groups will get together on the eve of the G-8 summit. The President's aide, the G-8 Sherpa Mr. Shuvalov, stated that if other countries' Ambassadors were to participate in this conference it would be viewed as an unfriendly step towards. Will you attend?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: The conference is supposed to take place over the next couple of days, and the United States will have a delegation there. It's going to be led by two Assistant Secretaries of State coming from Washington. Our goal is a very simple one, and that is to show support for civil society in Russia, not to endorse any particular political viewpoints. It's the same goal that has underscored our interest in other recent events here, for example the Civil G-8 meeting that took place last week. There have been a variety of events that have highlighted the importance of civil society and non-governmental organizations in Russia. We hope very much that the net result of all those events is going to be to strengthen and enlarge the space for civil society in Russia, simply because we think that's in Russia's self interest. NGOs play a very important role in helping to solve many of the problems that Russia has identified. We'll continue to show our support for that.
VENEDIKTOV: There is another topic connected with this: on the eve of the summit, we read an article in Washington Post and also a statement from the head of RFE/RL that their affiliates -- and their contracts with RFE affiliates in Russia -- are being dropped. Some are of the opinion that this is just a formality, a technicality, and that their documents should be properly submitted in accordance with the law. What do you think?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: It's true that Voice of America, Radio Free Europe, and Radio Liberty have all run into difficulties in recent months in rebroadcasting some of their programs on some Russian radio stations. I hardly need to say on Echo Moskvy to you or any of your listeners, who have such a proud tradition of standing for openness in the media, how important it is for people in this country or any society in the world to have access to information and points of view from a variety of different sources. It has been a concern for us, we've expressed that concern and we'll continue to, and hopefully we'll find a way to solve the problem.
Aleksey VENEDIKTOV: (joking) You understand that Ekho Mosvy radio station stand to win from this situation, because these people are our competitors. Perhaps it is not a project of the Kremlin, but an effort by Ekho Moskvy?
ASADOVA: Back to the G-8: maybe it is time to expand the G-8 to the G-10 to include India, China, or Brazil…
VENEDIKTOV: Or South Africa?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: One of the most interesting developments in G-8 summit meetings in the last few years has been the so-called outreach sessions where leaders from China, India, Brazil, and other countries actually take part in the last day of G-8 summits. I think that's a reflection of the reality that you just mentioned that there are rising powers in the world which have a lot to contribute to those kinds of discussions and it's important for the G-8 to engage with them directly.
VENEDIKTOV: Does that mean that a formal expansion is not so necessary?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: Well that's obviously something the G-8 leaders themselves are going to have to decide. But I think the practice we've seen over the last few years has demonstrated the value of engaging these countries and these leaderships.
ASADOVA: Could you name the top three world threats which the United States will consider during the G-8?
VENEDIKTOV: Please just list them, one, two, three, and the top threats that the leaders of industrialized nations have to face.
AMBASSADOR BURNS: The three that I would mention quickly are: first, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction; second, terrorism and violent extremism, because if terrorists could get their hands on nuclear weapons it would present an immediate danger to all of us; and third is the challenge of making progress in global trade negotiations, the so-called Doha round. I think it's in all of our interests, Americans, Russians and others around the world to make progress in those trade negotiations because open economies are going to benefit all of us.
ASADOVA: You know, we have already interviewed several G-8 Ambassadors all of them, with the exception of you, have listed environmental degradation as a threat to the world. Don't you regard it as a major danger?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: I think it's a danger, and I don't mean to suggest in citing those three an exclusive list of threats that exist in the world. The environment is a problem that Americans face; it's a problem that doesn't really respect anyone's borders. It's something we need to work hard on in the United States as well -- it clearly is a major challenge for all of us.
VENEDIKTOV: But if we talk about non-proliferation and weapons of mass destruction, we confront two problems (when I say "we", I mean "the world community") the nuclear problem of Iran and nuclear ballistic missile launch of North Korea. We know that this will become a part of the G-8 agenda. What is the position of the U.S.? Should force be used, or economic sanctions, or agreements on both counts?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: In both cases the key is a diplomatic solution. The United States and Russia are both committed to doing everything we can diplomatically, in the case of North Korea to persuade them to come back to the six-party talks, and in the case of Iran to take the so-called "Six"—Britain, France, Germany, China, Russia, and the United States—up on what we think is a very constructive offer. That again offers a diplomatic solution to the Iranian nuclear problem. Our focus is on diplomacy, and I think the United States and Russia have a great deal to contribute to the diplomatic effort.
Nargiz ASADOVA: The main issue proposed by Russia for discussion at G-8 will be energy security. What does energy security mean to you?
Aleksey VENEDIKTOV: And what would energy "insecurity" mean to you?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: Clearly energy, especially with regard to oil and gas, is going to be one of the main variables in the future of a global economy. Clearly what's important is to reaffirm the basic principles that both producers and consumers should apply to ensure that energy is a constructive ingredient in the global economy. And here, the United States and Russia have special responsibilities. Russia is today the biggest producer in the world of oil and gas, the United States is the biggest consumer. So partnership between us on energy isn't just rhetoric, it's a very real challenge. So I hope what we will see coming out of the G-8 summit is a reaffirmation by all the members of the G-8 of some basic principles: the importance of market principles; the importance of cooperation on investment in infrastructure, so that production can continue to grow; the importance of making that cooperation a two-way street, so that producers like Russia can make downstream acquisitions, can also take part in expanding refining capacity in consuming countries; to make sure the investment climate is predictable and transparent; to diversify sources of energy and transit routes; and to improve energy efficiency, which is important, getting back to your question about the environment. So, I think all of those principles are important to producers as well as consumers, and I think the St. Petersburg summit can do a lot of good if it helps to highlight and reenergize our commitment to those principles.
VENEDIKTOV: Mr. Ambassador, it seems as though your approach to the problem is at odds with European countries. European countries would like to gain access to oilfields in Russia, to pipelines; Russia wants to get access to pipelines in Europe but does not want anything in the U.S. And you, as I understand, have problems with Russia on liquid natural gas supplies. What stage are negotiations at now on supplying the U.S. with liquid natural gas? Don't forget that the main shareholder of this radio station is Gazprom and I am interested in this issue because I am also a Gasprom shareholder.
AMBASSADOR BURNS: The Shtokman project is a big opportunity for Russia as well as for whichever companies are chosen to participate in it. It's an investment that's going to require tens of billions of dollars, it's very important not just to Russia's energy future, but potentially to the North American market which seems to be the main objective of Shtokman, and also to the global economy. There are a couple of American companies that are competing, they have a lot to offer, and we hope very much for an early, positive decision. This is the kind of project that I think can benefit all of us.
ASADOVA: As far as I remember from the most recent reports on Shtokman was that there are five companies on the "short list" and three of them are American. Could you please tell me whether these American companies are still on the "short list?"
AMBASSADOR BURNS: I think only two of the five are American, unless it's changed recently, but I hope very much that they're still competitive, and as I said we think they have a lot to offer. What's most important is to get projects like Shtokman moving because I think that's going to be very important to Russia's energy future.
VENEDIKTOV: As you know, the energy sector is closely linked with politics in this country. Do you believe that the political criticism coming from the American Administration prevents American companies from being more active on the Russian market, not only in the Shtokman project but in general? Do you think this criticism seriously hinders American investment in Russia?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: The pattern that we've seen of American trade and investment in Russia over the last year or so has been one of pretty dramatic increases. American direct investment increased by about 50% in Russia over the last year. I think American companies have a lot to offer which is not only in their commercial interests but also in Russia's economic interest. So whether it's in energy or in the non-energy sector, our hope is simply that people will make these decisions on the commercial merits, and focus on what these companies can contribute to Russia's economy.
VENEDIKTOV: So you are not concerned that the political criticism of President Bush will interfere in the full participation of American companies in the Shtokman project?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: I think what's important is to focus on the commercial possibilities.
VENEDIKTOV: I would like to remind you, our audience, that we still have five minutes with the U.S. Ambassador to Russia, and Nargiz Asadova is here from Kommersant Vlast magazine.
ASADOVA: President Putin has recently stated that the agreement between Russia and the U.S., START-II, should be renewed. Do you believe that it should be done as soon as possible?
VENEDIKTOV: Whether you choose to reconsider, re-conclude, resume, or renew, the meaning does not change.
AMBASSADOR BURNS: It's an important question; I think our two presidents will discuss that in St. Petersburg. There are some very practical issues here, like what do you do with the verification procedures of START-II after the treaty itself is scheduled to expire in 2009. It's important for our experts to discuss those issues sooner rather than later. I can't predict the exact form that those discussions will take, but I'm sure our two presidents will be talking about that issue, and will then be engaging on it systematically afterwards.
VENEDIKTOV: Do I understand you correctly that this question will be discussed during the bilateral meeting of President Bush and President Putin? What else will be on the agenda?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: On the bilateral agenda, you're exactly right; the issue you just mentioned of a strategic dialogue will be on the agenda. So will the question of WTO and expanding trade and investment and economic relations between our two countries. I think there's also a significant possibility to expand nuclear cooperation between the United States and Russia. Both of our presidents have talked in very similar terms about the importance of working together in developing civilian nuclear technology, making the benefits of that technology available to developing countries, and doing that in a way that guards against the proliferation of nuclear weapons. I think there's a great deal more we can do together, and I also believe that the United States and Russia have a unique historical responsibility-- because of where we've been together before-- and unique capabilities to show leadership on that broad issue of nuclear cooperation.
ASADOVA: You have said that nonproliferation will be discussed at the bilateral meeting. Does this mean that the two presidents will discuss Iran at the bilateral meeting?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: I'd be very surprised if our two presidents didn't talk about Iran in their bilateral meeting and I also suspect that it will be an important subject that the G-8 leaders will be discussing as well. In addition to the formal agenda items -- energy, health, and education -- a number of subjects always arise, depending upon what's most pressing in the world at that moment.
VENEDIKTOV: Mr. Ambassador, some Russian political figures have been blaming American forces for deaths of Russian diplomats in Iraq, saying that there is no order and security is the responsibility of the American troops. I have two questions about this: does the U.S. Administration bear responsibility for Iraq? And secondly, are American special forces cooperating with Russia to find the terrorists, those who killed the hostages?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: Yes, we certainly are cooperating with the Russian government in trying to find and bring to justice those who were responsible. This was a terrible crime, the murder of four Russian diplomats. I've spent a lot of years working in the Middle East. I have great personal admiration for Russian diplomats working in that part of the world. I know the dangers under which all of our diplomats work there, and I've experienced myself the loss of friends and colleagues to terrorist attacks. So, my condolences to the victims and their families. As I said, we are working closely with the Russian authorities in the investigation to try to bring those responsible to justice. We work very hard, the United States does, along with the Iraqi security services, to try and bring stability and security to that society. It is a very difficult and dangerous place right now, but we do the very best we can.
VENEDIKTOV: One more very important question: President Putin speaks about it very often, the double standard of the approach to the problems of Kosovo and Abkhazia. Georgian President Saakashvili has met President Bush. They must have discussed this issue. Will the issues of Georgia and Ukraine be discussed at bilateral meeting? And do you believe, as President Putin does, that Kosovo is a precedent for Abkhazia and other "frozen conflicts" in Europe?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: On your first question, I'd be surprised if some issues involved in Russia's neighborhood don't come up in the bilateral meeting. I don't know specifically what they will be. But they could well include Georgia as well as Ukraine. And you're right, President Saakashvili was just in Washington and he had visited President Putin in St. Petersburg the month before. I think with regard to precedents, it's important to be careful in seeking to highlight one issue and call it a precedent for others. We're committed to, and I think many others are committed to, a peaceful process, a diplomatic process for addressing some of the concerns that have been raised, whether it's with regard to Abkhazia or South Ossetia. The United States remains firmly committed to the territorial integrity of Georgia, and we think some of the existing mechanisms that apply both to South Ossetia — existing international diplomatic mechanisms — that apply to South Ossetia and Abkhazia ought to be taken full advantage of.
ASADOVA: A very slippery subject is being discussed now in Europe: CIA secret prisons in the European Union. Europeans are concluding that the intelligence services of European countries should not cooperate with the CIA when it comes to extraditing people accused of terrorism so that they may be secretly transported to Guantanamo or other prisons. Do you believe in this type of cooperation or not?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: There has been a good deal of cooperation between security services of the United States and European governments, as well as with Russia, in fighting against terrorism. It's a challenge that all of us have to deal with. It's clear that the issue of so-called secret prisons has aroused a great deal of controversy. But we're continuing to try to pursue practical cooperation with our friends in Europe in a way that serves both of our interests.
ASADOVA: Do you think that Guantanamo will be closed?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: I don't know. The Supreme Court has made a ruling that has an impact on Guantanamo, but that's something that's going to be sorted out in Washington, not by the American ambassador in Russia.
VENEDIKTOV: And the last question to Mr. Burns, Ambassador Plenipotentiary of the United States to Russia: you know that the speech of Vice-President Cheney generated a new Latin term in the Kremlin, "Causa Cheney"? When I meet with my colleagues behind the wall, I always ask them the same question: has "Causa Cheney" been overcome? Now I would like to ask you, Mr. Ambassador. It makes no sense now to discuss whether or not the Vice-President was understood correctly. On the eve of the G-8, has "Causa Cheney" been overcome?
AMBASSADOR BURNS: Well, I won't comment on the particular term. Certainly the speech the Vice-President gave in Vilnius aroused a certain amount of attention here. I did notice that. The particular concerns and themes that the Vice-President emphasized were not new ones. They're ones that other senior American officials had raised before. They reflect a general concern about certain developments in Russia in recent years. We express those concerns, just to repeat, not because we pretend to any monopoly on wisdom, about how Russians build their own political institutions. We do it simply because we think it's in Russia's self-interest to have a society that is becoming more open, in which civil society can function effectively, and in which institutions are built. It's not an easy process; Americans don't have all the answers for how Russians go about addressingthose questions or dealing with those challenges. We have the benefits of our experience that we'll offer, and we're committed to trying to build the strongest possible relationship between our two countries.
VENEDIKTOV: Thank you very much Mr. Ambassador. I would like to remind our listeners that those who didn't have the opportunity to listen today will be able to read excerpts from this interview in the July 17 issue of Kommersant Vlast magazine. This has been an interview with the U.S. Ambassador on the eve of the G-8. In an hour's time we'll have the Ambassador of Italy with us, and we'll congratulate him on the victory of his team. Thank you.